Show me the veeps: Live-blogging the Biden-Palin debate
By Michael J.W. Stickings
8:51 pm - Okay, here we go. Less than ten minutes before the debate. Keep checking back. I'll be updating this frequently over the next couple of hours.
8:53 pm - First observation: CNN is populated with fools. In response to Jeffrey Toobin's poing that Palin's interview with Couric was a disaster, John "Magic Board" King said that everyone has a bad day now and then. Really? Palin's utter incompetence can be chalked up to a bad day? And don't get me started on Gloria Borger, who has yet to say a single intelligent thing in all my time watching CNN throughout this entire campaign -- okay, I'm exaggerating, but she's just so... trivial.
8:56 pm -- Here's the problem going in: expectations. According to Toobin, generally a solid Obama supporter and Democrat, Palin just needs to look competent. See how low the expectations are for her? I wrote about this yesterday. David Gergen at least argued that she needs to look like a leader -- in other words, much more than merely competent.
9:00 pm - By the way, I'm drinking Yamazaki single malt whisky (aged 12 years). The Japanese tend to like their whisky watered down, but I'm having it straight, with just a trickle of cold water. I prefer my whisky a bit smokier than this, but it's good stuff. Hopefully -- if I may take from my favourite song of all time by my favourite band of all time -- it'll keep me going through the show. (Hello, hello, hello... is there anybody in there, just nod if you can hear me...)
9:04 pm - Palin asks if she can call him Joe. Nice, populist touch, even if her plan is to attack him. And Biden's off to a good start: very sober and restrained, but hitting Bush hard. Yes -- focus on homeowners, talk about Main Street. He's making good points while contrasting Obama-Biden from McCain-Palin.
9:05 pm - Palin, predictably, is playing the populist card, but she's doing okay so far. There's no real substance to what she's saying, but at least she's speaking coherently and is looking straight into the camera. But praising McCain for the bailout bill? Putting politics aside? Bullshit.
9:07 pm - This is good. Biden talking about his record and bipartisanship. And calling out McCain for his stupid comment about the fundamentals of the economy. This is what Biden has to do: focus on McCain. Make this about McCain. And McCain wasn't talking about the workforce, which is Palin's defence. "A team of mavericks." More bullshit.
9:09 pm - Palin: Americans want something different? Yeah, Obama. Really, how are McCain and Palin going to stop the greed on Wall Street? Hockey moms, Joe Six-Pack. Yup, she's trying to be the folksy all-American.
9:11 pm - Biden is being so careful. Taking it to McCain -- on McCain's love of deregulation, for example -- but, again, being very restrained. Let Palin look like she's trying too hard. And here she is, attacking Obama and Biden on taxes. So predictable.
9:14 pm - My friend and co-blogger J. Thomas Duffy just sent me a post he's done. Check it out.
9:15 pm - Palin won't answer the questions the way the moderator wants? She'll talk straight to the people? Thankfully, Ifill cut her off. It's because she's just a wellspring of hollow talking points.
9:17 pm - Biden is right. This is about class. Higher taxes for the wealthy, who have already had their taxes slashed, doesn't equate to higher taxes for the middle class.
9:18 pm - Oooh, Palin has details of McCain's health-care plan. Biden needs to go after her on this. It's a market-oriented plan, with Americans required to find their health care on their own in the market. How does that sound at this time of financial crisis?
9:20 pm - Biden: solid. Tax breaks not for Exxon but for people from places like Scranton. Good job. He has such command. "The ultimate bridge to nowhere." Cheap, but a nice touch -- and one that drew a laugh from the audience.
9:23 pm - Stay in control, Joe, stay in control. She's just trying to taunt you. Really, though, she's attacking him for supporting Big Oil? She basically wants to allow Big Oil to rape Alaska.
9:24 pm - She didn't answer the question, by the way. What would she take back from her promises? She can't think of one friggin' thing? They'll keep all their promises? Bullshit.
Creature: "He has command, but he's coming across a bit too strong. I'm not sure he's playing well.
J. Thomas Duffy: "Palin just threw a Shout Out to the base conservatives, when she called on people to 'step out of the way and let the Private Sector handle it' ... She hasn't flubbed anything yet, but she's sounding awfully canned."
Creature: "Though her folksy shtick make me sick." I hear you, my friend. (Thankfully, this whisky is really good.)
9:28 pm - Come on, let's get to social and foreign policy...
9:29 pm - Palin just wants to read from her mental script, avoiding pretty much every question. It's crazy for her to defend her and McCain's record on alternative energy. Come on, Joe. Don't let her get away with it. Obama's the one with the viable plan for energy independence.
9:31 pm - Ah, climate change. As she told Couric, she doesn't think it's all man-made. No one says it's all man-made. But she clearly doesn't get it. You have to know and understand the causes in order to do anything about it. What an idiotic response.
9:33 pm - Yes! Biden makes that point. It's man-made. And you have to know the causes. McCain has voted repeatedly against funding alternative energy. Invest in clean technology, export that technology. Good stuff. All the Republicans have is more and more drilling.
9:34 pm - "Drill, baby, drill," says Palin. Insane. Drilling won't make much of a difference in the short-term, if any at all. We're looking decades into the future. Oh, and she neglected to answer the question (about clean coal). Again.
9:36 pm - "How do we deal with global warming with additional carbon emissions?" asks Biden.
9:37 pm - Social policy... Same-sex benefits. Good answer from Biden. Constitutional benefits. And Palin? -- no change to "traditional definition of marriage." Oh, but she'll be "tolerant." Thanks. "I have a very diverse family." Uh-huh. She she may be for equal treatment in terms of benefits, but... her answer is about marriage. Damn. This is where I can't stand Obama and Biden. They say they aren't for same-sex marriage. Come on. Let's get past this.
Creature: "She's not answering the questions and Gwen's letting her get away with it. What's up with that? I'll agree with JTD very canned (but it may work)."
9:40 pm - Foreign policy. Iraq. Palin's pro-surge talking points are, once again, predictable. "We have got to win in Iraq." Okay... and how? And what is victory? Where's Katie to ask some follow-up questions? "We're getting closer and closer to victory." Really? Evidence?
9:41 pm - Biden: Obama's plan is Maliki's plan. It's what the Iraqis want. Palin attacked Obama for voting against funding the troops, but, of course, that was a bill without a timetable. McCain voted against funding the troops on a bill with a timetable. Good for Biden for making that distinction. Biden: "We will end this war." For McCain, "there is no end in sight." Solid. Solid. Solid. And Palin's playing the surrender card. Bullshit. Backed into a corner, all she has left are inartful smears.
9:44 pm - Palin thinks she's got Biden and is so smug about it (about Biden once saying nice things about McCain). She makes the "cutting off funding" point again. She's running out of talking points. Good, Joe. Going after McCain for being so utterly wrong in Iraq from the beginning.
9:47 pm - Biden certainly knows his foreign policy. His discussion of Pakistan is pretty good. Palin: "central war on terror" is in Iraq? Right, sure. So she doesn't think Iran should be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons. But it's not like she actually has a plan or anything. It's all hollow rhetoric.
9:49 pm - Oh, Palin had a nice conversation with Kissinger. Great. We're back to last Friday's debate. Palin is making the misleading point that Obama wants to meet with America's enemies without pre-conditions. "Simply not true," responds Biden. He's clarifying. Talk, talk, talk -- this is diplomacy. Good point: McCain won't even sit down to talk with foreign leaders.
9:52 pm - Seriously, what does Palin know about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Let along a two-state solution? "We should never allow a second Holocaust." Obviously. Again, there's no substance to anything she's saying.
My friend T-Steel from TMV: "I'm trying to remain impartial but Governor Palin is just to general and sweeping. She is working her notes hard."
J. Thomas Duffy: "The longer this is going, the more Palin is going into the Tina Fey/Katie Couric mode, that she's splaying all over the place, almost that we can hear the words in her head being lifted on to the conveyor belt, going into the "Out" tube..."
9:54 pm - "The only thing on the march is Iran." -- Biden. Well said. Bush's policies have been abject failures. "We both love Israel." -- Palin. Fantastic.
9:55 pm - Jesus. Palin's not even coming close to answering the question. She's all over the place. Reform, McCain the maverick, yadda, yadda, yadda... There are blunders in every administration? Bush's blunders have been rather more significant, no? And Biden makes a good point in response: McCain's policies would be just like Bush's. I'd say: likely even worse.
9:57 pm - Wait, did Palin just say there's a safe way to use "nuclear weaponry"? Huh?
9:58 pm - Biden's confident. Maybe a bit too strong. But he's right that an Iraq-like surge won't work in Afghanistan. Which was Palin's point. She wanted desperately to talk about Afghanistan, but all she could say was that there should be a surge there.
9:59 pm - Biden on nuclear proliferation, one of Obama's strongest issues. Palin's back to the surge, though -- not answering the question. She's reading her notes. Stay in control, Joe. Biden: We've been calling for more money and more troops for Afghanistan, not McCain.
10:01 pm - Biden on Bosnia/Kosovo, Iraq, and Darfur. He's a hawk, there's no denying that. But he was right about Bosnia. He's a bit shaky on his support for the Iraq War, though: he was for it, but not really. Hmmm. But he does have a workable plan on Darfur.
10:03 pm - And Palin plays the outsider card. "Straight talk." Bullshit. But this is a weak spot for Biden, who has disagreed with Obama on Iraq. She gives a decent answer on Darfur, but without much substance. Divestment, that's it.
10:05 pm - Good. Biden's tying McCain to Cheney on Iraq. His own views may be somewhat contradictory, but he can get around that by focusing on McCain. In response, Palin is waffling. McCain know this and that. "He will know how to implement the strategies... He will know how to win a war." That's all she's got, folks. And I'm out of whisky. Damnation.
10:08 pm - If necessary, Biden would carry out Obama's policies -- and he does well to provide an overview of them. "There are such stark differences" between the two tickets. Palin: "What do you expect? A team of mavericks." Bullshit. Seriously. Bullshit. "Putting government back on the side of the people." Really? Like Bush's tax cuts? Like the ongoing Iraq War? Like more deregulation anywhere and everywhere. And she's folky again: Wasilla's Main Street. Oy. And, once more, she shows she's a good Republican by smearing Obama and Biden on taxes.
10:11 pm - Solid rebuttal from Biden on the middle class. Palin: "Say it ain't so, Joe." Well, I guess you knew that was coming. Oh, good, she winked at her dad. She doesn't know what she's talking about.
10:14 pm - What does a vice president do? Hey, everyone, it's civics class with Sarah Palin. Needless to say, Biden's response is much more substantive.
10:16 pm - Palin keeps reading her notes. Really weak. She's sounding like she did with Couric. Biden: "Dick Cheney is probably the most dangerous vice president we've had in our history." Something like that. Nice. And he understands the VP only presides over the Senate in case of a tie.
10:18 pm - What's Palin's Achilles heal? The CW is lack of experience, says Ifill. Palin, again, is not answering the question. She's talking about how great her experience is. "Beacon of hope." "Shining light." "We represent a perfect ideal..." Wow. So incredibly banal. So incredibly empty.
10:20 pm - Biden. The CW is lack of judgement, says Ifill. Biden acknowledges that, and moves on. Well done. And he's talking about his personal story, about being a single father. This may be Biden't best moment of the entire debate. He knows what it's like to sit around the kitchen table, he knows that people need hope. He's a passionate man. He is what he is. He won't change. And what do we get from Palin? More maverick talk, as if she and McCain are all about change. Come on. "Change is coming and McCain is the leader..." Bullshit. Biden: McCain is no maverick. He voted for Bush's tax cuts. He voted against health care for children. He didn't support tax cuts for people who want to send their kids to college. He hasn't been a maverick on the war. Kitchen table stuff again... very strong. "Maverick he is not," said Biden of McCain. Excellent.
10:24 pm - Biden's reading his notes. Stop it. And he's talking about judicial appointments. Good to bring up the Supreme Court, given Palin's appalling non-answer to Couric on SCOTUS cases. Palin says she's never had to compromise on anything important. But now she's talking about bringing both sides together. Oy. More bullshit.
10:27 pm - Biden needs to look directly in the camera. But he's making a strong, if convoluted, case for reaching out in a bipartisan way. And Palin's talking about her "diverse" family. But she's all over the place, like she's plucking out talking points, patching one-liners together.
10:29 pm - Final statements.
10:30 pm - Palin attacks "the mainstream media" as a "filter." We'll fight for the middle class, she claims. "We are so blessed... We have to fight for our freedoms... It was Ronald Reagan who said... There is only one man in this race who has fought for you..." Such mindless drivel.
10:31 pm - Good. Biden's looking into the camera, talking about paying the mortgage, sending kids to college... the bread-and-butter issues on Main Street. "It's time for America to get up together." Very well done.
10:33 pm - Alright, that's it.
**********
Creature: "This is disappointing. Palin played the agreeable role Barack Obama played Friday night and Joe Biden played the surly old man. She was canned, she was overly folksy for my taste, she spoke in generalities, she didn't answer the questions but she's was prepared and far from the ditsy caricature that she's been portrayed as recently. Unfortunately, a rejuvenated Plain will be the new narrative after tonight."
Well, this is what I feared going in, that, with such low expectations, a decent performance by Palin would be spun as a "comeback." And she certainly did... okay. But "rejuvenated"? We'll see. She did much better early on, discussing economic issues. I thought she was rather weak on foreign policy, and it showed. And, towards the end, her answers seemed canned, like talking points stitched together. And so much of what she said involved taxes, the usual Republican attack on Democrats. It doesn't work this year.
As for Biden, I think he did fairly well. He was strong on the issues and he avoided a major gaffe, and avoided coming across as arrogant and condescending.
10:37 pm: Gergen thinks Biden gave the best debate performance of his life. But the overall assessment seems to be that Palin held her own. Again, she beat expectations. Oh, so Borger does say something mildly perspective, if obvious: Palin didn't answer the questions. No substance, says Hilary Rosen. "On Iraq, she wandered all over the place." No game-changer, says Ed Rollins.
All so predictable. There was really nothing Biden could do to win, nothing he could do to stand out. It was all about Palin: Would she flounder and embarrass herself? Would she single-handedly sink the McCain campaign tonight. Obviously, that wasn't going to happen. As so many people were saying going in, myself included, she was bound to give a decent performance. And, well, she did -- in superficial debating terms. But she lagged far behind Biden on the issues, on substance, and I thought Biden had some particularly excellent moments.
So who won? Well, let me think about it for a moment...
10:44 pm - More Creature, from his post-debate post: "[Palin] was prepared and far from the ditsy caricature that she's been portrayed as recently. I think Biden did fine. He certainly ended very strong and I think he was genuine (and right on the issues, BTW). But, unfortunately, a rejuvenated Plain will be the new narrative after tonight."
10:55 pm - Yup, here's the spin. Rollins: "She's back." This is the point Creature and I are making. Palin may have won this debate simply by not embarrassing herself. The expectations for her were that low. Forget that she failed miserably on the issues. All she wanted to talk about was energy and taxes. On pretty much everything else, she was just regurgitating the talking points, often stringing them together incomprehensibly. No, it wasn't nearly as bad as her Couric performance, but that's the point. By doing better, she triumphed.
10:57 pm - But let's not look past Biden, even though all the talk is about Palin. He did very well. He did what he had to do. He showed a commend both of himself and of the issues, he didn't fuck up, didn't have to extricate his foot from his mouth, and, again, on substance, won easily. The problem is that media (and many voters) don't judge debates on substance. For them, it's about style and expectations.
10:59 pm - So who won? I'll call it a slight "win" for Palin -- and especially for McCain, who should get a boost from this. If nothing else, the media have something else to talk about other than Obama's surge in the polls and McCain's ridiculous behaviour in response to the financial crisis. And it's sad to say that it's a "win" for Palin -- a perceived win, that is. It's sad that this is what American politics, even at the highest level, has been reduced to.
11:05 pm - "Sarah Palin had a pretty good night tonight." Republicans will be energized again. See? Gergen agrees, but "it doesn't change the dynamic of the race." Let's hope not. Toobin agrees. This debate won't bring independents over to McCain. Hold on, I need to switch over to MSNBC. (I can't believe I just typed that.)
11:08 pm - Howard Fineman on Palin: "a wolverine attaching herself to the pantleg of a passerby." Something like that. Good line. And Olbermann's calling her out for not answering the questions. But, Fineman again: "She was more than ready for prime-time." Sure, if prime-time is pre-packaged excrement. Oh, wait, it is. Come on, talk about the substance... and they are. Fineman: "I don't think she helped at all."
11:11 pm - Ah, Rachel Maddow... finally, some intelligence. "She hammed it up" on the folksiness. "Joe Biden was boring." She comments on Palin's suggestion that the veep's powers be expanded: "the legacy of Cheney."
11:13 pm - Initial poll, reported by Olbermann: Biden victory on content, but not much moved in terms of the race itself. And we'll have to wait to see what the polls say. Remember that many pundits were calling the first presidential debate a tie or even a slight McCain victory. It wasn't until the polls came out that it was clear that it was a solid victory for Obama.
LindaBeth: "My big gasp came at the end, and I just got finished debating it with my b/f's dad: in her closing statement, Palin called herself a 'middle class family'. I was almost certain that wasn't at all true, considering that the Tax Foundation cites that $122,000 is the max family income that can be called 'middle income' (it's the top figure for the middle 60% of American families' incomes). Huff-Po cites her economic resources, including her $250k income, here."
11:29 pm - Newshoggers' Fester: "Gov. Palin played to her strength of being a nasty talking point repeated with a kindergarten teacher's voice. She also managed to string words in forms that resembled sentences and the occassional sentence group into paragraphs. Sen. Biden kept his feet firmly on the ground and out of his mouth while his fire was aimed straight at McCain."
An update from Creature: "The spin has begun and maybe I was wrong. Bob Schiffer gave huge props to Biden. Rachel Maddow also says Biden was more human. Though, Pat Buchanan -- speaking for the base, of course -- was head over heels for Palin... Early polls, according to CNN, give the debate to Biden. Maybe my first impression, pre-debate, was right after all. Interesting. Maybe the bloom is so off the McCain/Palin ticket that there's no going up for them."
12:23 am - Sorry, just took a break to decompress -- with some tea, some dessert, and Jon Stewart.
12:24 am - The Politico's Roger Simon, a guest on Hardball, thought Palin was amazing. Breaking news: Roger Simon is an idiot.
12:25 am - I thought Keith Olbermann did a fantastic job on Palin's Afghanistan blunder. First, she referred to the U.S. commander in Afghanistan as "McClellan." Actually, the current commander of the International Security Assistance Force is Gen. David McKiernan. Second, McKiernan did say, contrary to Palin's claim, that an Iraq-like surge wouldn't work in Afghanistan.
12:30 am - The polls -- CBS and CNN -- have Biden as the winner. Once again, the pundits are wrong.
12:32 am - Although, this headline from the AP could be the dominant spin tomorrow: "Palin stands her ground in VP debate with Biden." See, the expectations game. That's what Palin won.
12:33 am - For some other live-blogging of the debate, now in the past (so, according to McCain-Palin, it no longer matters), see Think Progress and Andrew Sullivan. Kos has some post-debate thoughts here: "Sarah Palin won! Actually, she survived, since she had no 'deer in headlight' moments... On the merits, Biden won easy. On the things that debates are scored on, it was a draw. And for us Democrats, that's the same as victory." (On another matter, Kos thought Gwen Ifill was "excellent." I thought she was just okay. Sullivan thought she was "intimidated, peripheral, neutered."
12:39 am - Sullivan has additional debate reaction here. He also makes some good points here, including: "Palin's inability to answer real questions, her capacity to avoid follow-ups, her slightly manic quality, and her inability to relate to working class voters came across... What we need now is a press conference with Palin. She needs to be forced to answer follow-ups. She needs to be made accessible to the press and thereby the American people." Indeed she does.
12:41 am - By the way, CNN has a transcript of the debate here. I'm sure it's a fantastic read.
12:42 am - And that's it for me for tonight. It's been long, but fun. Thank you all for stopping by, and especially to all of you who took the time to share your thoughts. (I encourage you all to read the comments. There are quite a few of them, and many of them are excellent.)
And thank you to Creature for his fantastic contributions throughout the evening, as well as to JTD and LB. I'll be back tomorrow, along with the co-bloggers, with more reaction. I'm sure there will be a lot more to say. Stop by and read us again.
Good night, everyone, and take care.
UPDATED FREQUENTLY -- PLEASE ADD YOUR COMMENTS AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF THE DEBATE.
THIS HAS BECOME A VERY LONG POST. SCROLL DOWN FOR OUR LATEST UPDATES.
8:51 pm - Okay, here we go. Less than ten minutes before the debate. Keep checking back. I'll be updating this frequently over the next couple of hours.
8:53 pm - First observation: CNN is populated with fools. In response to Jeffrey Toobin's poing that Palin's interview with Couric was a disaster, John "Magic Board" King said that everyone has a bad day now and then. Really? Palin's utter incompetence can be chalked up to a bad day? And don't get me started on Gloria Borger, who has yet to say a single intelligent thing in all my time watching CNN throughout this entire campaign -- okay, I'm exaggerating, but she's just so... trivial.
8:56 pm -- Here's the problem going in: expectations. According to Toobin, generally a solid Obama supporter and Democrat, Palin just needs to look competent. See how low the expectations are for her? I wrote about this yesterday. David Gergen at least argued that she needs to look like a leader -- in other words, much more than merely competent.
9:00 pm - By the way, I'm drinking Yamazaki single malt whisky (aged 12 years). The Japanese tend to like their whisky watered down, but I'm having it straight, with just a trickle of cold water. I prefer my whisky a bit smokier than this, but it's good stuff. Hopefully -- if I may take from my favourite song of all time by my favourite band of all time -- it'll keep me going through the show. (Hello, hello, hello... is there anybody in there, just nod if you can hear me...)
9:04 pm - Palin asks if she can call him Joe. Nice, populist touch, even if her plan is to attack him. And Biden's off to a good start: very sober and restrained, but hitting Bush hard. Yes -- focus on homeowners, talk about Main Street. He's making good points while contrasting Obama-Biden from McCain-Palin.
9:05 pm - Palin, predictably, is playing the populist card, but she's doing okay so far. There's no real substance to what she's saying, but at least she's speaking coherently and is looking straight into the camera. But praising McCain for the bailout bill? Putting politics aside? Bullshit.
9:07 pm - This is good. Biden talking about his record and bipartisanship. And calling out McCain for his stupid comment about the fundamentals of the economy. This is what Biden has to do: focus on McCain. Make this about McCain. And McCain wasn't talking about the workforce, which is Palin's defence. "A team of mavericks." More bullshit.
9:09 pm - Palin: Americans want something different? Yeah, Obama. Really, how are McCain and Palin going to stop the greed on Wall Street? Hockey moms, Joe Six-Pack. Yup, she's trying to be the folksy all-American.
9:11 pm - Biden is being so careful. Taking it to McCain -- on McCain's love of deregulation, for example -- but, again, being very restrained. Let Palin look like she's trying too hard. And here she is, attacking Obama and Biden on taxes. So predictable.
9:14 pm - My friend and co-blogger J. Thomas Duffy just sent me a post he's done. Check it out.
9:15 pm - Palin won't answer the questions the way the moderator wants? She'll talk straight to the people? Thankfully, Ifill cut her off. It's because she's just a wellspring of hollow talking points.
9:17 pm - Biden is right. This is about class. Higher taxes for the wealthy, who have already had their taxes slashed, doesn't equate to higher taxes for the middle class.
9:18 pm - Oooh, Palin has details of McCain's health-care plan. Biden needs to go after her on this. It's a market-oriented plan, with Americans required to find their health care on their own in the market. How does that sound at this time of financial crisis?
9:20 pm - Biden: solid. Tax breaks not for Exxon but for people from places like Scranton. Good job. He has such command. "The ultimate bridge to nowhere." Cheap, but a nice touch -- and one that drew a laugh from the audience.
9:23 pm - Stay in control, Joe, stay in control. She's just trying to taunt you. Really, though, she's attacking him for supporting Big Oil? She basically wants to allow Big Oil to rape Alaska.
9:24 pm - She didn't answer the question, by the way. What would she take back from her promises? She can't think of one friggin' thing? They'll keep all their promises? Bullshit.
Creature: "He has command, but he's coming across a bit too strong. I'm not sure he's playing well.
J. Thomas Duffy: "Palin just threw a Shout Out to the base conservatives, when she called on people to 'step out of the way and let the Private Sector handle it' ... She hasn't flubbed anything yet, but she's sounding awfully canned."
Creature: "Though her folksy shtick make me sick." I hear you, my friend. (Thankfully, this whisky is really good.)
9:28 pm - Come on, let's get to social and foreign policy...
9:29 pm - Palin just wants to read from her mental script, avoiding pretty much every question. It's crazy for her to defend her and McCain's record on alternative energy. Come on, Joe. Don't let her get away with it. Obama's the one with the viable plan for energy independence.
9:31 pm - Ah, climate change. As she told Couric, she doesn't think it's all man-made. No one says it's all man-made. But she clearly doesn't get it. You have to know and understand the causes in order to do anything about it. What an idiotic response.
9:33 pm - Yes! Biden makes that point. It's man-made. And you have to know the causes. McCain has voted repeatedly against funding alternative energy. Invest in clean technology, export that technology. Good stuff. All the Republicans have is more and more drilling.
9:34 pm - "Drill, baby, drill," says Palin. Insane. Drilling won't make much of a difference in the short-term, if any at all. We're looking decades into the future. Oh, and she neglected to answer the question (about clean coal). Again.
9:36 pm - "How do we deal with global warming with additional carbon emissions?" asks Biden.
9:37 pm - Social policy... Same-sex benefits. Good answer from Biden. Constitutional benefits. And Palin? -- no change to "traditional definition of marriage." Oh, but she'll be "tolerant." Thanks. "I have a very diverse family." Uh-huh. She she may be for equal treatment in terms of benefits, but... her answer is about marriage. Damn. This is where I can't stand Obama and Biden. They say they aren't for same-sex marriage. Come on. Let's get past this.
Creature: "She's not answering the questions and Gwen's letting her get away with it. What's up with that? I'll agree with JTD very canned (but it may work)."
9:40 pm - Foreign policy. Iraq. Palin's pro-surge talking points are, once again, predictable. "We have got to win in Iraq." Okay... and how? And what is victory? Where's Katie to ask some follow-up questions? "We're getting closer and closer to victory." Really? Evidence?
9:41 pm - Biden: Obama's plan is Maliki's plan. It's what the Iraqis want. Palin attacked Obama for voting against funding the troops, but, of course, that was a bill without a timetable. McCain voted against funding the troops on a bill with a timetable. Good for Biden for making that distinction. Biden: "We will end this war." For McCain, "there is no end in sight." Solid. Solid. Solid. And Palin's playing the surrender card. Bullshit. Backed into a corner, all she has left are inartful smears.
9:44 pm - Palin thinks she's got Biden and is so smug about it (about Biden once saying nice things about McCain). She makes the "cutting off funding" point again. She's running out of talking points. Good, Joe. Going after McCain for being so utterly wrong in Iraq from the beginning.
9:47 pm - Biden certainly knows his foreign policy. His discussion of Pakistan is pretty good. Palin: "central war on terror" is in Iraq? Right, sure. So she doesn't think Iran should be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons. But it's not like she actually has a plan or anything. It's all hollow rhetoric.
9:49 pm - Oh, Palin had a nice conversation with Kissinger. Great. We're back to last Friday's debate. Palin is making the misleading point that Obama wants to meet with America's enemies without pre-conditions. "Simply not true," responds Biden. He's clarifying. Talk, talk, talk -- this is diplomacy. Good point: McCain won't even sit down to talk with foreign leaders.
9:52 pm - Seriously, what does Palin know about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Let along a two-state solution? "We should never allow a second Holocaust." Obviously. Again, there's no substance to anything she's saying.
My friend T-Steel from TMV: "I'm trying to remain impartial but Governor Palin is just to general and sweeping. She is working her notes hard."
J. Thomas Duffy: "The longer this is going, the more Palin is going into the Tina Fey/Katie Couric mode, that she's splaying all over the place, almost that we can hear the words in her head being lifted on to the conveyor belt, going into the "Out" tube..."
9:54 pm - "The only thing on the march is Iran." -- Biden. Well said. Bush's policies have been abject failures. "We both love Israel." -- Palin. Fantastic.
9:55 pm - Jesus. Palin's not even coming close to answering the question. She's all over the place. Reform, McCain the maverick, yadda, yadda, yadda... There are blunders in every administration? Bush's blunders have been rather more significant, no? And Biden makes a good point in response: McCain's policies would be just like Bush's. I'd say: likely even worse.
9:57 pm - Wait, did Palin just say there's a safe way to use "nuclear weaponry"? Huh?
9:58 pm - Biden's confident. Maybe a bit too strong. But he's right that an Iraq-like surge won't work in Afghanistan. Which was Palin's point. She wanted desperately to talk about Afghanistan, but all she could say was that there should be a surge there.
9:59 pm - Biden on nuclear proliferation, one of Obama's strongest issues. Palin's back to the surge, though -- not answering the question. She's reading her notes. Stay in control, Joe. Biden: We've been calling for more money and more troops for Afghanistan, not McCain.
10:01 pm - Biden on Bosnia/Kosovo, Iraq, and Darfur. He's a hawk, there's no denying that. But he was right about Bosnia. He's a bit shaky on his support for the Iraq War, though: he was for it, but not really. Hmmm. But he does have a workable plan on Darfur.
10:03 pm - And Palin plays the outsider card. "Straight talk." Bullshit. But this is a weak spot for Biden, who has disagreed with Obama on Iraq. She gives a decent answer on Darfur, but without much substance. Divestment, that's it.
10:05 pm - Good. Biden's tying McCain to Cheney on Iraq. His own views may be somewhat contradictory, but he can get around that by focusing on McCain. In response, Palin is waffling. McCain know this and that. "He will know how to implement the strategies... He will know how to win a war." That's all she's got, folks. And I'm out of whisky. Damnation.
10:08 pm - If necessary, Biden would carry out Obama's policies -- and he does well to provide an overview of them. "There are such stark differences" between the two tickets. Palin: "What do you expect? A team of mavericks." Bullshit. Seriously. Bullshit. "Putting government back on the side of the people." Really? Like Bush's tax cuts? Like the ongoing Iraq War? Like more deregulation anywhere and everywhere. And she's folky again: Wasilla's Main Street. Oy. And, once more, she shows she's a good Republican by smearing Obama and Biden on taxes.
10:11 pm - Solid rebuttal from Biden on the middle class. Palin: "Say it ain't so, Joe." Well, I guess you knew that was coming. Oh, good, she winked at her dad. She doesn't know what she's talking about.
10:14 pm - What does a vice president do? Hey, everyone, it's civics class with Sarah Palin. Needless to say, Biden's response is much more substantive.
10:16 pm - Palin keeps reading her notes. Really weak. She's sounding like she did with Couric. Biden: "Dick Cheney is probably the most dangerous vice president we've had in our history." Something like that. Nice. And he understands the VP only presides over the Senate in case of a tie.
10:18 pm - What's Palin's Achilles heal? The CW is lack of experience, says Ifill. Palin, again, is not answering the question. She's talking about how great her experience is. "Beacon of hope." "Shining light." "We represent a perfect ideal..." Wow. So incredibly banal. So incredibly empty.
10:20 pm - Biden. The CW is lack of judgement, says Ifill. Biden acknowledges that, and moves on. Well done. And he's talking about his personal story, about being a single father. This may be Biden't best moment of the entire debate. He knows what it's like to sit around the kitchen table, he knows that people need hope. He's a passionate man. He is what he is. He won't change. And what do we get from Palin? More maverick talk, as if she and McCain are all about change. Come on. "Change is coming and McCain is the leader..." Bullshit. Biden: McCain is no maverick. He voted for Bush's tax cuts. He voted against health care for children. He didn't support tax cuts for people who want to send their kids to college. He hasn't been a maverick on the war. Kitchen table stuff again... very strong. "Maverick he is not," said Biden of McCain. Excellent.
10:24 pm - Biden's reading his notes. Stop it. And he's talking about judicial appointments. Good to bring up the Supreme Court, given Palin's appalling non-answer to Couric on SCOTUS cases. Palin says she's never had to compromise on anything important. But now she's talking about bringing both sides together. Oy. More bullshit.
10:27 pm - Biden needs to look directly in the camera. But he's making a strong, if convoluted, case for reaching out in a bipartisan way. And Palin's talking about her "diverse" family. But she's all over the place, like she's plucking out talking points, patching one-liners together.
10:29 pm - Final statements.
10:30 pm - Palin attacks "the mainstream media" as a "filter." We'll fight for the middle class, she claims. "We are so blessed... We have to fight for our freedoms... It was Ronald Reagan who said... There is only one man in this race who has fought for you..." Such mindless drivel.
10:31 pm - Good. Biden's looking into the camera, talking about paying the mortgage, sending kids to college... the bread-and-butter issues on Main Street. "It's time for America to get up together." Very well done.
10:33 pm - Alright, that's it.
**********
Creature: "This is disappointing. Palin played the agreeable role Barack Obama played Friday night and Joe Biden played the surly old man. She was canned, she was overly folksy for my taste, she spoke in generalities, she didn't answer the questions but she's was prepared and far from the ditsy caricature that she's been portrayed as recently. Unfortunately, a rejuvenated Plain will be the new narrative after tonight."
Well, this is what I feared going in, that, with such low expectations, a decent performance by Palin would be spun as a "comeback." And she certainly did... okay. But "rejuvenated"? We'll see. She did much better early on, discussing economic issues. I thought she was rather weak on foreign policy, and it showed. And, towards the end, her answers seemed canned, like talking points stitched together. And so much of what she said involved taxes, the usual Republican attack on Democrats. It doesn't work this year.
As for Biden, I think he did fairly well. He was strong on the issues and he avoided a major gaffe, and avoided coming across as arrogant and condescending.
10:37 pm: Gergen thinks Biden gave the best debate performance of his life. But the overall assessment seems to be that Palin held her own. Again, she beat expectations. Oh, so Borger does say something mildly perspective, if obvious: Palin didn't answer the questions. No substance, says Hilary Rosen. "On Iraq, she wandered all over the place." No game-changer, says Ed Rollins.
All so predictable. There was really nothing Biden could do to win, nothing he could do to stand out. It was all about Palin: Would she flounder and embarrass herself? Would she single-handedly sink the McCain campaign tonight. Obviously, that wasn't going to happen. As so many people were saying going in, myself included, she was bound to give a decent performance. And, well, she did -- in superficial debating terms. But she lagged far behind Biden on the issues, on substance, and I thought Biden had some particularly excellent moments.
So who won? Well, let me think about it for a moment...
10:44 pm - More Creature, from his post-debate post: "[Palin] was prepared and far from the ditsy caricature that she's been portrayed as recently. I think Biden did fine. He certainly ended very strong and I think he was genuine (and right on the issues, BTW). But, unfortunately, a rejuvenated Plain will be the new narrative after tonight."
10:55 pm - Yup, here's the spin. Rollins: "She's back." This is the point Creature and I are making. Palin may have won this debate simply by not embarrassing herself. The expectations for her were that low. Forget that she failed miserably on the issues. All she wanted to talk about was energy and taxes. On pretty much everything else, she was just regurgitating the talking points, often stringing them together incomprehensibly. No, it wasn't nearly as bad as her Couric performance, but that's the point. By doing better, she triumphed.
10:57 pm - But let's not look past Biden, even though all the talk is about Palin. He did very well. He did what he had to do. He showed a commend both of himself and of the issues, he didn't fuck up, didn't have to extricate his foot from his mouth, and, again, on substance, won easily. The problem is that media (and many voters) don't judge debates on substance. For them, it's about style and expectations.
10:59 pm - So who won? I'll call it a slight "win" for Palin -- and especially for McCain, who should get a boost from this. If nothing else, the media have something else to talk about other than Obama's surge in the polls and McCain's ridiculous behaviour in response to the financial crisis. And it's sad to say that it's a "win" for Palin -- a perceived win, that is. It's sad that this is what American politics, even at the highest level, has been reduced to.
11:05 pm - "Sarah Palin had a pretty good night tonight." Republicans will be energized again. See? Gergen agrees, but "it doesn't change the dynamic of the race." Let's hope not. Toobin agrees. This debate won't bring independents over to McCain. Hold on, I need to switch over to MSNBC. (I can't believe I just typed that.)
11:08 pm - Howard Fineman on Palin: "a wolverine attaching herself to the pantleg of a passerby." Something like that. Good line. And Olbermann's calling her out for not answering the questions. But, Fineman again: "She was more than ready for prime-time." Sure, if prime-time is pre-packaged excrement. Oh, wait, it is. Come on, talk about the substance... and they are. Fineman: "I don't think she helped at all."
11:11 pm - Ah, Rachel Maddow... finally, some intelligence. "She hammed it up" on the folksiness. "Joe Biden was boring." She comments on Palin's suggestion that the veep's powers be expanded: "the legacy of Cheney."
11:13 pm - Initial poll, reported by Olbermann: Biden victory on content, but not much moved in terms of the race itself. And we'll have to wait to see what the polls say. Remember that many pundits were calling the first presidential debate a tie or even a slight McCain victory. It wasn't until the polls came out that it was clear that it was a solid victory for Obama.
LindaBeth: "My big gasp came at the end, and I just got finished debating it with my b/f's dad: in her closing statement, Palin called herself a 'middle class family'. I was almost certain that wasn't at all true, considering that the Tax Foundation cites that $122,000 is the max family income that can be called 'middle income' (it's the top figure for the middle 60% of American families' incomes). Huff-Po cites her economic resources, including her $250k income, here."
11:29 pm - Newshoggers' Fester: "Gov. Palin played to her strength of being a nasty talking point repeated with a kindergarten teacher's voice. She also managed to string words in forms that resembled sentences and the occassional sentence group into paragraphs. Sen. Biden kept his feet firmly on the ground and out of his mouth while his fire was aimed straight at McCain."
An update from Creature: "The spin has begun and maybe I was wrong. Bob Schiffer gave huge props to Biden. Rachel Maddow also says Biden was more human. Though, Pat Buchanan -- speaking for the base, of course -- was head over heels for Palin... Early polls, according to CNN, give the debate to Biden. Maybe my first impression, pre-debate, was right after all. Interesting. Maybe the bloom is so off the McCain/Palin ticket that there's no going up for them."
12:23 am - Sorry, just took a break to decompress -- with some tea, some dessert, and Jon Stewart.
12:24 am - The Politico's Roger Simon, a guest on Hardball, thought Palin was amazing. Breaking news: Roger Simon is an idiot.
12:25 am - I thought Keith Olbermann did a fantastic job on Palin's Afghanistan blunder. First, she referred to the U.S. commander in Afghanistan as "McClellan." Actually, the current commander of the International Security Assistance Force is Gen. David McKiernan. Second, McKiernan did say, contrary to Palin's claim, that an Iraq-like surge wouldn't work in Afghanistan.
12:30 am - The polls -- CBS and CNN -- have Biden as the winner. Once again, the pundits are wrong.
12:32 am - Although, this headline from the AP could be the dominant spin tomorrow: "Palin stands her ground in VP debate with Biden." See, the expectations game. That's what Palin won.
12:33 am - For some other live-blogging of the debate, now in the past (so, according to McCain-Palin, it no longer matters), see Think Progress and Andrew Sullivan. Kos has some post-debate thoughts here: "Sarah Palin won! Actually, she survived, since she had no 'deer in headlight' moments... On the merits, Biden won easy. On the things that debates are scored on, it was a draw. And for us Democrats, that's the same as victory." (On another matter, Kos thought Gwen Ifill was "excellent." I thought she was just okay. Sullivan thought she was "intimidated, peripheral, neutered."
12:39 am - Sullivan has additional debate reaction here. He also makes some good points here, including: "Palin's inability to answer real questions, her capacity to avoid follow-ups, her slightly manic quality, and her inability to relate to working class voters came across... What we need now is a press conference with Palin. She needs to be forced to answer follow-ups. She needs to be made accessible to the press and thereby the American people." Indeed she does.
12:41 am - By the way, CNN has a transcript of the debate here. I'm sure it's a fantastic read.
12:42 am - And that's it for me for tonight. It's been long, but fun. Thank you all for stopping by, and especially to all of you who took the time to share your thoughts. (I encourage you all to read the comments. There are quite a few of them, and many of them are excellent.)
And thank you to Creature for his fantastic contributions throughout the evening, as well as to JTD and LB. I'll be back tomorrow, along with the co-bloggers, with more reaction. I'm sure there will be a lot more to say. Stop by and read us again.
Good night, everyone, and take care.
Labels: 2008 election, Afghanistan, Bailout Bill, Barack Obama, Darfur, debates, energy, financial crisis, Iraq War, Joe Biden, John McCain, Pakistan, same-sex marriage, Sarah Palin, taxes, U.S. economy
posted by Michael J.W. Stickings at
8:45 PM
36 Comments:
He has command, but he's coming across a bit too strong. I'm not sure he's playing well.
By
creature, at 9:23 PM
Though her folksy shtick make me sick.
By
creature, at 9:26 PM
Biden is breaking things down. Palin is generalizing.
By
T-Steel, at 9:30 PM
I'm trying to remain impartial but Governor Palin is just to general and sweeping. She is working her notes hard.
By
T-Steel, at 9:48 PM
Why isnt she answering the questions?!!! This is what I keep hearing from Palin, Supercalifragilisticespialodocious, mMverick, Blunder, McCain, blahblahblah!!!
By
Anonymous, at 10:14 PM
Does she EVER answer a question directly? Good grief, she respects a lot but never answers a question directly.
And what is so hard about the word nuclear that she can NOT say it either - un, oh it's a female W!
By
Unknown, at 10:19 PM
I think Palin sounded like an idiot. The bootcamp she was put through did a great job helping her memorize what they wanted, but Palin couldn't even come up with an answer that made sense on her own. It seemed that if the answer was not written down in front of her, Palin made something up that sounded good to her at the time. BTW-making a 'shout out' to back home is ridiculous. Biden was strong and showed off his long time experience.
By
Anonymous, at 10:41 PM
My husband and I just watched the debate. We can't believe what and idiot Palin was. No one has mentioned that she was clearly nervous, fidgety and swallowing hard. Her comments were full of all fluff and no substance. How can anyone say she did well? I think the pundits are being way too nice to her. She gave a shout out during the middle of the debate? Who does that? How is that "Presidential"? I am frightened (again) for our future.
By
MDM, at 10:48 PM
Palin danced around a lot of issues. The only thing she really had a valid say in was that the "No Child Left Behind Act" was not working. Besides that, Joe Biden back everything with hardcore FACT.
By
Anonymous, at 10:56 PM
Is she the Manchurian candidate? or a Stepford wife? "Maverick" "like me/mine" "ticket"
All the key words she has been programmed to say, she got in. You know, after, W. - The Moron - I wouldn't be surprised that the uneducated masses turn out and vote for this bimbo.
By
Unknown, at 10:57 PM
it seems like McCain does not understand fanatic war tactics. He just want to war and "win" a war which does not concern America directly. There is no one wins in a war. Everyone losses. The only way to keep fanatics from growing is through education and sent peace making troops. When US started to react to the 9/11 to enter Afghanistan, it is the beginning of US fail policies.
America! WAKE UP. Going to war with Islamic countries for the 100 years is not the solution. Team work and peace making with Islamic countries to conquer terrorism is the way to solve problem. Islamic people are great people of the world. It is time to wake up to understand them.
By
Anonymous, at 11:00 PM
Palin had just failed the VP test. Making fun of opponent is just not professional. I think John McCain would have heart attack in may be a year or two (if he is elected), we would have Palin who does not respect opponent. She is worst than Bush.
Islam has always respect women, we do know the fanatics do not (just like any other fanatic religions), neither is Islam pro feminist. If Palin becomes the US presidential, US would be in big trouble.
Please dont vote for McCain/ Palin. For US will fail in their hands.
By
Anonymous, at 11:08 PM
Wow...sounds like blogger had WAY preconceived ideas prior to debate. So much for open to "change".
By
Anonymous, at 11:11 PM
I find it interesting that there is such hostility toward a female conservative candidate. If it was a liberal female candidate, would there be such hostility or a fierce protectiveness ? something to think about.
By
Anonymous, at 11:23 PM
If Palin doesn't even know the commander's name correctly it makes me a little uncomfortable about her taking such a high office! How is she going to talk to leaders of other countries if she can't even remember the names of the people she works with here at home??? It sure sounded like a lot of her answers she gave were quotes from the very scripted speeches she gives not genuine answers. And last point about her is it was not just one interview it has been multiple interviews. The woman has no idea about anything that is going on in the WORLD outside of energy. In no way shape or form is she ready to be in office or take over if something were to happen to McCain
By
Anonymous, at 11:23 PM
I think that Gov. Palin consistently comes across as a very smug individual. Does not appear trust worthy. It is a shame because I really do like McCain but would not trust Palin in a situation where she could potentially run the country. I am unable to even watch our current Pres. Bush anymore and could not take another 4 years of the same with Palin.
By
Anonymous, at 11:37 PM
She's more ready than the democratic candidate in that she ran a HUGE state government. Can the democratic candidate say he ran anything larger than a tee-ball league?
By
Anonymous, at 11:38 PM
The hostility is not toward a female candidates. If a female democrat who talked like Palin would face the same hostility too. A conservative woman who knows what she says would be praised. So does a female democrat.
of all, Palin's is not qualify for presidential position. She is not good enough to lead a nation if McCain dies. That is where the hostilities from.
By
Anonymous, at 11:39 PM
Palin just made liberal coasters poop their pants. That's ok you can use your Obama signs to wipe with.
By
Anonymous, at 11:40 PM
Hostility is toward female CONSERVATIVE candidates only. She is aware of what she says. Says it eloquently and concisely. Is capable of running Alaska and cares about the American people. UM, Frankly, that equals more experience than an Illinois Senator. But I guess she's a conservative woman so that's a lot to overlook. I get it.
By
Anonymous, at 11:46 PM
Nothing to do with CON or LIB. She is applying for the, arguably, second most powerful position in the world and she was clearly crapping her shorts up there with one of the most likeable guys in the senate. Imagine if she had to make a point with a hostile? Who was she winking at?
By
Anonymous, at 12:12 AM
McCain/Palin supporters,
If you think this is only to conservative female candidate only why then the liberal black male being attack for the things he stood up. I am not an American and is a Mormon, who dont see what is wrong for Palin facing hostility when she will be running the this country? If she cant take this hostility, then she does not qualify to be the VP of the USA. The whole world is viewing this debate and the world thinks not one with just a pretty face with no experience should run the country.
May be 10 years or 20 years from now.
The the conservatives, what is wrong to allow other to be equal to you? God is bigger then what you see and know.
By
Anonymous, at 12:22 AM
All I can say is after watching the debate.....Stick a fork in the McCain/Palin ticket they are DONE!
By
Anonymous, at 12:22 AM
The debate certainly will motivate the Republican base. But I don't see it going much further than that. In fact, in most polls Independents are moving to Obama. Palin did better than most people expected. However, the story of the evening is that Biden gave the debate of his life. Independent voters are left to ask who they would want as VP if 911 were to happen. It is clear that Palin is just not there right now. She had a script she referred to which made her look mechanical at times.
I think that Palin will no longer be blamed if McCain loses the election. It's good news for her political future if she should run for President down the road. However, the debate wasn't enough to move Independents to vote for the McCain ticket. I felt sorry for her that she was having to defend McCain's policies that are so out of touch with the average American. She lacks a lot of deeper knowledge on the issues as well that made her look out of her league.
Just as the convention, I can see a slight bounce. However, come tomorrow when the topic moves back to the economy, McCain will have to do more than count on Palin to win the election. Biden was surprising tonight. He did exactly what he needed to do. If he would've lost this debate, that would've been a game changer. However, all polls have shown so far including most impartial experts Biden won this. This debate will have little effect in the days ahead.
By
Anonymous, at 12:24 AM
Biden won the debate. But she didn't hurt herself, which means it was a vistory for her.
She was a mechanical simpleton reading from a script. The "aw shucks" bs is completely inappropriate for someone running for a position this important. We already had "the guy you would have a beer with"/village idiot as president for 8 years, we don't need another one that close to the position. Given McCain's age, this matters!
The amazing thing to me is that there are people who are undecided in this race! The 2 choices couldn't be more different
By
Anonymous, at 12:36 AM
I am just waiting for the moment when everyone stops believing the rhetoric from the Obama/Biden campaign. I just got out of the military, and truly believe in what we are doing there. But for Biden to stand there and lie straight to the American public, stating that troops will be pulled from Iraq, but forgetting to mention that he and Obama just want to move those troops to Afghanistan is ridiculous. I truly believe that if we are to massively pull all troops from Iraq, all hell will break loose, we have made great strides to cover these so called "terrorist areas," which in all truth are where insurgents from Syria, Pakistan, and Iran are just walking over the borders. It is a true fact that if we give up in Iraq, we give up the Middle East, and our Israeli brethren would not last much longer. As for the "maverick" approach with McCain, I seem to remember a lot of my training for certain survival schools being very highly based on McCain and how he survived, and no one is going to prove otherwise to me. As for Gov. Palin, I do truly believe what she is saying and what she stands for. I just have a massive problem with mainstream media and how they were fine with the fact that Hillary Clinton would be president, as a woman, but the instant a conservative woman comes into the picture they all turn their backs. I have actually seen newscasters bordering on feministic ideals talk down Palin because she is a woman, this is ridiculous. I still believe my vote will be for the only combination which will move us forward in this world, and keep us alive and stable. McCain/Palin!
By
Anonymous, at 12:46 AM
Choose the good candidate
Just saw the debate, she has been well prepared it seems.
But you have to remember thant a VP job is more than a well polished debate...
Check out what she've said and see if you're compatible www.palin-compatible.com
By
Anonymous, at 1:23 AM
You all want to tackle Palin for "beating around" the question when Biden himself danced around a couple of issues. Where are your complaints about that?
And what the heck did Biden keep smiling that goofy smile of his at? Palin? It kept irritating the heck out of me.
Anyways, McCain/Palin for the win.
By
Anonymous, at 1:26 AM
Wow. This blog is amazing. How far are you willing to go up the Obama Hershey highway to Socialism.
I am surprised Palin isn't speechless when paddling this deep in Obama fodder.
You really need a new Country dude. May I suggest the United Soviet Socialist Republic.
By
Anonymous, at 1:27 AM
The bottom line here is that people somehow want to say that you should vote for McPalin because Palin simply didn't wet herself on stage, and that's completely absurd. Is that what we want out of our Vice President and possible President - someone who's declared a winner because she wasn't a complete car wreck?
At the same time, because Palin didn't have a deer in the headlights moment, people have looked past the fact that when asked by Ifill about nuclear Pakistan she said this: "And as for who coined that central war on terror being in Iraq, it was the Gen. Petraeus and al Qaeda...You don't have to believe me or John McCain on that...I would believe Petraeus and the leader of al Qaeda."
Are you joking? So Palin's foreign policy is to use information from sworn enemies of the U.S.? So if al Qaeda says the central war on terror is going to be waged at the McDonalds across Texas is Palin going to send troops to secure the home of the Big Mac with some special sauce just because they said so?
I didn't know Palin's foreign policy meant that she would take a sworn enemy of the United States at face value. Talk about naive.
Biden 1, Palin - 1 (up from -3)
By
Anonymous, at 2:09 AM
An appeal to all intelligent Americans: Sarah Palin is trying to convince everyone that she is a superior alternative. I agree SHE IS AN ALTERNATIVE, but definitely NOT SUPERIOR. She is an inferior alternative. Her lack of depth, absence of solid experience on how good policies and programs are developed for the world's ONLY SUPERPOWER is SCARY. Would we really risk having her and McCain in the White House? Lastly, at the rate Palin attacked the Federal Government, she clearly forgot that GEORGE BUSH is the head of such government and is in fact, A REPUBLICAN!
By
Anonymous, at 2:52 AM
Rediculous......she didn't refuse to answer any questions....she used notes yes, so did Biden. She was poised, responsive, and articulate. Not gonna get too riled though, I know this is a liberal blog. Joe did well, but I think she clearly won.
By
Anonymous, at 7:54 AM
If I heard About Wasilla, Alaska one more time I wanted to Scream! How many times did Sarah avoid a question? She is a female Dan Quayle. Potatoe? or Potato? does she know whats what.
By
Anonymous, at 9:05 AM
I' surprised Palin didn't correct herself when she said that the climate may have been "man-made." I would argue that it is "human-made," but it would have been a drinking moment if Sarah Palin corrected Biden by saying something to the effect that "well... what about women-made??"
At any rate, Palin looked well-coached, and it should make every citizen of the US nervous that one can simply be coached in a weekend to debate like a real politiican, and real politician vying for political control of our country and of our lives. Sarah Palin being in control of me... no. It's not going to happen.
By
Unknown, at 9:18 AM
In case you wanna see every single one of Palin's Gaffes up until this debate then check this out. Every wonderful little nugget of truth one on page. I never even knew about a few of these. I've made it my homepage now.
http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/01/236com_sarah_palin_video_libra_1_9253.php
By
Anonymous, at 6:40 PM
I found this anonymous post on a neighboring blog and was stunned, horrified, amazed and enlightened. It stitches together a lot of things that I've been thinking and discussing with friends and associates for some time now. I can't say I agree 100% but it comes WAY closer to what I think is reality and how we should live, than 99% of what is out there.
The anonymous poster said they have been making such predictions and creating this post for years now, and said you could find earlier iterations of it on the internet if you looked. I looked, and I did. I found several--the earliest I found before I quit looking was in December of 2005.
It's not a short post, but it's a complex topic and I believe this is worth your while to read to the end.
So, without further ado, I'd like to share it with you...
Amazing. The first ever global depression will go down in history horribly misunderstood. What a pathetic bunch of ignorant fools we have become. Consumer junkie credit card morons. Perfect little victims. Say that reminds me.
Don’t believe one optimistic word from any public figure about the economy or humanity in general. They are all part of the problem. Its like a game of Monopoly. In America, the richest 1% now hold ALMOST 1/2 OF ALL UNITED STATES WEALTH. Unlike ‘lesser’ estimates, this includes all stocks, bonds, cash, offshore accounts, and material assets held by America’s richest 1%. Even that filthy pig Oprah acknowledged that it was at about 50% in 2006. Naturally, she put her own ‘humanitarian’ spin on it. Calling attention to her own ‘good will’. WHAT A DISGUSTING HYPOCRITE SLOB. THE RICHEST ONE PERCENT HAVE LITERALLY MADE WORLD PROSPERITY ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE. Don’t fall for any of their ‘humanitarian’ CRAP. ITS A SHAM. THESE PEOPLE ARE CAUSING THE SAME PROBLEMS THEY PRETEND TO CARE ABOUT. Ask any professor of economics. Money does not grow on trees. The government can’t just print up more on a whim. At any given time, there is a relative limit to the wealth within ANY economy of ANY size. So when too much wealth accumulates at the top, the middle class slip further into debt and the lower class further into poverty. A similar rule applies worldwide. The world’s richest 1% now own over 40% of ALL WORLD WEALTH. This is EVEN AFTER you account for all of this ‘good will’ ‘humanitarian’ BS from celebrities and executives. ITS A SHAM. As they get richer and richer, less wealth is left circulating beneath them. This is the single greatest underlying cause for the current US recession. The middle class can no longer afford to sustain their share of the economy. Their wealth has been gradually transferred to the richest 1%. One way or another, we suffer because of their incredible greed. We are talking about TRILLIONS of dollars which have been transferred FROM US TO THEM. All over a period of about 27 years. That's Reaganomics for you. The wealth does not ‘trickle down’ as we were told it would. It just accumulates at the top. Shrinking the middle class and expanding the lower class. Causing a domino effect of socioeconomic problems. But the rich will never stop. They just keep getting richer. Leaving even less of the pie for the other 99% of us to share. At the same time, they throw back a few tax deductible crumbs and call themselves ‘humanitarians’. Cashing in on the PR and getting even richer the following year. IT CAN’T WORK THIS WAY. Their bogus efforts to make the world a better place can not possibly succeed. Any ‘humanitarian’ progress made in one area will be lost in another. EVERY SINGLE TIME. IT ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT WORK THIS WAY. This is going to end just like a game of Monopoly. The current US recession will drag on for years and lead into the worst US depression of all time. The richest 1% will live like royalty while the rest of us fight over jobs, food, and gasoline. So don’t fall for any of this PR CRAP from Hollywood, Pro Sports, and Wall Street PIGS. ITS A SHAM. Remember: They are filthy rich EVEN AFTER their tax deductible contributions. Greedy pigs. Now, we are headed for the worst economic and cultural crisis of all time. Crime, poverty, and suicide will skyrocket. SEND A “THANK YOU” NOTE TO YOUR FAVORITE MILLIONAIRE. ITS THEIR FAULT. I’m not discounting other factors like China, sub-prime, or gas prices. But all of those factors combined still pale in comparison to that HUGE transfer of wealth to the rich. Anyway, those other factors are all related and further aggravated because of GREED. If it weren’t for the OBSCENE distribution of wealth within our country, there never would have been such a market for sub-prime to begin with. IF IT WEREN’T FOR THE OBSCENE, UNREASONABLE, AND UNJUST DISTRIBUTION OF UNITED STATES WEALTH, THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCH A MARKET FOR SUB-PRIME AND THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN A COLLAPSE IN THE HOUSING MARKET. Sub-prime did not cause the problem. It only accelerated the outcome. Which by the way, was another trick whipped up by greedy bankers and executives. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. The credit industry has been ENDORSED by people like Oprah Winfrey, Ellen DeGeneres, Dr Phil, and many other celebrities. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. In fact, they specifically endorsed Countrywide by name. The same Countrywide widely responsible for predatory adjustable rate sub-prime lending and the accelerated collapse of the housing market. ENDORSED BY OPRAH WINFREY, ELLEN DEGENERES, AND DR PHIL. Now, there are commercial ties between nearly every industry and every public figure. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. It also drives up the cost for nearly every product and service on the market. So don’t fall for their ‘good will’ BS. ITS A LIE. If you fall for it, then you’re a fool. If you see any real difference between the moral character of a celebrity, politician, attorney, or executive, then you’re a fool. No offense fellow citizens. But we have been mislead by nearly every public figure. We still are. Even now, they claim to be ‘hurting’ right along with the rest of us. As if gas prices actually effect the lifestyle of a millionaire. ITS A LIE. IN 2007, THE RICHEST 1% INCREASED THEIR AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE WEALTH AGAIN. On average, they are now worth over $4,000,000 each. That's an all time high. As a group, they are now worth well over $17,000,000,000,000. THAT'S WELL OVER SEVENTEEN TRILLION DOLLARS. Another all time high. Which by the way, is much more than the entire middle and lower classes combined. Also more than enough to pay off our national debt, fund the Iraq war for a decade, repair our infrastructure, and bail out the US housing market. Still think that our biggest problem is China? Think again. Its the 1% club. That means every big name celebrity, athlete, executive, entrepreneur, developer, banker, and lottery winner. Along with many attorneys, doctors, and politicians. If they are rich, then they are part of the problem. Their incredible wealth was not ‘created’, ‘generated’, grown in their back yard, or printed up on their command. It was transferred FROM US TO THEM. Directly and indirectly. Its become near impossible to spend a dollar without making some greedy pig even richer. Don’t be fooled by the occasional loss of a millionaire’s fortune. Overall, they just keep getting richer. They absolutely will not stop. Still, they have the nerve to pretend as if they care about ordinary people. ITS A LIE. NOTHING BUT CALCULATED PR CRAP. WAKE UP PEOPLE. THEIR GOAL IS TO WIN THE GAME. The 1% club will always say or do whatever it takes to get as rich as possible. Without the slightest regard for anything or anyone but themselves. Reaganomics. Their idea. Loans from China. Their idea. NAFTA. Their idea. Outsourcing. Their idea. Sub-prime. Their idea. High energy prices. Their idea. Oil ‘futures’. Their idea. Obscene health care charges. Their idea. The commercial lobbyist. Their idea. The multimillion dollar lawsuit. Their idea. The multimillion dollar endorsement deal. Their idea. $200 cell phone bills. Their idea. $200 basketball shoes. Their idea. $30 late fees. Their idea. $30 NSF fees. Their idea. $20 DVDs. Their idea. Subliminal advertising. Their idea. Brainwash plots on TV. Their idea. Vioxx, and Celebrex. Their idea. Excessive medical testing. Their idea. The MASSIVE campaign to turn every American into a brainwashed, credit card, pharmaceutical, medical testing, love-sick, celebrity junkie. Their idea. All of the above drive up the cost of living, shrink the middle class, concentrate the world’s wealth and resources, create a domino effect of socioeconomic problems, and wreak havoc on society. All of which have been CREATED AND ENDORSED by celebrities, athletes, executives, entrepreneurs, attorneys, and politicians. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. So don’t fall for any of their ‘good will’ ‘humanitarian’ BS. ITS A SHAM. NOTHING BUT TAX DEDUCTIBLE PR CRAP. In many cases, the ‘charitable’ contribution is almost entirely offset. Not to mention the opportunity to plug their name, image, product, and ‘good will’ all at once. Which is usually done just before or after the release of their latest commercial project. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. These filthy pigs even have the nerve to throw a fit and spin up a misleading defense with regard to ‘federal tax revenue’. ITS A SHAM. THEY SCREWED UP THE EQUATION TO BEGIN WITH. If the middle and lower classes had a greater share of the pie, they could easily cover a greater share of the federal tax revenue. They are held down in many ways because of greed. Wages remain stagnant for millions because the executives, celebrities, athletes, attorneys, and entrepreneurs, are paid millions. They over-sell, over-charge, under-pay, outsource, cut jobs, and benefits to increase their bottom line. As their profits rise, so do the stock values. Which are owned primarily by the richest 5%. As more United States wealth rises to the top, the middle and lower classes inevitably suffer. This reduces the potential tax revenue drawn from those brackets. At the same time, it wreaks havoc on middle and lower class communities and increases the need for financial aid. Not to mention the spike in crime because of it. There is a domino effect to consider. IT CAN’T WORK THIS WAY. But our leaders refuse to acknowledge this. Instead they come up with one trick after another to milk the system and screw the majority. These decisions are heavily influenced by the 1% club. Every year, billions of federal tax dollars are diverted behind the scenes back to the rich and their respective industries. Loans from China have been necessary to compensate in part, for the red ink and multi-trillion dollar transfer of wealth to the rich. At the same time, the feds have been pushing more financial burden onto the states who push them lower onto the cities. Again, the hardship is felt more by the majority and less by the 1% club. The rich prefer to live in exclusive areas or upper class communities. They get the best of everything. Reliable city services, new schools, freshly paved roads, upscale parks, etc. The middle and lower class communities get little or nothing without a local tax increase. Which, they usually can’t afford. So the red ink flows followed by service cuts and lay-offs. All because of the OBSCENE distribution of bottom line wealth in this country. Anyway, when you account for all federal, state, and local taxes, the middle class actually pay about the same rate as the rich. The devil is in the details. So when people forgive the rich for their incredible greed and then praise them for paying a greater share of the FEDERAL income taxes, its like nails on a chalk board. I can not accept any theory that our economy would suffer in any way with a more reasonable distribution of wealth. After all, it was more reasonable 30 years ago. Before Reaganomics came along. Before GREED became such an epidemic. Before we had an army of over-paid executives, bankers, celebrities, athletes, attorneys, doctors, investors, entrepreneurs, developers, and sold-out politicians to kiss their asses. As a nation, we were in much better shape. Strong middle class, free and clear assets, lower crime rate, more widespread prosperity, stable job market, lower deficit, etc. Our economy as a whole was much more stable and prosperous for the majority. WITHOUT LOANS FROM CHINA. Now, we have a more obscene distribution of bottom line wealth than ever before. We have a sold-out government, crumbling infrastructure, energy crisis, home foreclosure epidemic, credit crunch, weak US dollar, 13 figure national deficit, and 12 figure annual shortfall. The cost of living is higher than ever before. Most people can’t even afford basic health care. ALL BECAUSE OF GREED. I really don’t blame the 2nd -5th percentiles in general. No economy could ever function without some reasonable scale of personal wealth and income. But it can’t be allowed to run wild like a mad dog. ALBERT EINSTEIN TRIED TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND. UNBRIDLED CAPITALISM ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT WORK. TOP HEAVY ECONOMIES ALWAYS COLLAPSE. Bottom line: The richest 1% will soon tank the largest economy in the world. It will be like nothing we’ve ever seen before. The American dream will be shattered. and that's just the beginning. Greed will eventually tank every major economy in the world. Causing millions to suffer and die. Oprah, Angelina, Brad, Bono, and Bill are not part of the solution. They are part of the problem. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MULTI-MILLIONAIRE HUMANITARIAN. EXTREME WEALTH MAKES WORLD PROSPERITY ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE. WITHOUT WORLD PROSPERITY, THERE WILL NEVER BE WORLD PEACE OR ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE. GREED KILLS. IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL. Of course, the rich will throw a fit and call me a madman. Of course, they will jump to small minded conclusions about ‘jealousy’, ‘envy’, or ’socialism’. Of course, their ignorant fans will do the same. You have to expect that. But I speak the truth. If you don’t believe me, then copy this entry and run it by any professor of economics or socioeconomics. Then tell a friend. Call the local radio station. Re-post this entry or put it in your own words. Be one of the first to predict the worst economic and cultural crisis of all time and explain its cause. WE ARE IN BIG TROUBLE.
So what can we do about it? Well, not much. Unfortunately, we are stuck on a runaway train. The problem has gone unchecked for too many years. The US/global depression is coming thanks to the 1% club. It would take a massive effort by the vast majority to prevent it. Along with a voluntary sacrifice by the rich. THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. But if you believe in miracles, then spend your money as wisely as possible. Especially in middle and lower class communities. Check the Fortune 500 list and limit your support of high profit/low labor industries (Hollywood, pro sports, energy, credit, pharmaceutical, cable, satellite, internet advertising, cell phone, high fashion, jewelry, etc.). Cancel all but one credit card for emergencies only. If you need a cell phone, then do your homework and find the best deal on a local pre-pay. If you want home internet access, then use the least expensive provider, and share accounts whenever possible. If you need to search, then use the less popular search engines. They usually produce the same results anyway. Don’t click on any internet ad. If you need the product or service, then look up the phone number or address and contact that business directly. Don’t pay to see any blockbuster movie. Instead, wait a few months and rent the DVD from a local store or buy it USED. If you want to see a big name game or event, then watch it in a local bar, club, or at home on network TV. Don’t buy any high end official merchandise and don’t support the high end sponsors. If its endorsed by a big name celebrity, then don’t buy it. If you can afford a new car, then make an exception for GM, Ford, and Dodge. If they don’t increase their market share soon, then a lot more people are going to get screwed out of their pensions and/or benefits. Of course, you must know by now to avoid those big trucks and SUVs unless you truly need one for its intended purpose. Don’t be ashamed to buy a foreign car if you prefer it. After all, those with the most fuel efficient vehicles consume a lot less foreign oil. Which accounts for a pretty big chunk of our trade deficit. Anyway, the global economy is worth supporting to some extent. Its the obscene profit margins, trade deficits, and BS from OPEC that get us into trouble. Otherwise, the global economy would be a good thing for everyone. Just keep in mind that the big 3 are struggling and they do produce a few smaller reliable cars. Don’t frequent any high end department store or any business in a newly developed upper class community. By doing so, you make developers richer and draw support away from industrial areas and away from the middle class communities. Instead, support the local retailer and the less popular shopping centers. Especially in lower or middle class communities. If you can afford to buy a home, then do so. But go smaller and less expensive. Don’t get yourself in too deep and don’t buy into the newly developed condos or gated communities. Instead, find a modest home in a building or neighborhood at least 20 years old. If you live in one of the poorer states, then try to support its economy first and foremost. Be on the lookout for commercial brainwash plots on TV. They are written into nearly every scene of nearly every show. Most cater to network sponsors and parent companies. Especially commercial health care. Big business is fine on occasion depending on the profit margins and profit sharing. Do your homework. If you want to support any legitimate charity, then do so directly. Never support any celebrity foundation. They spend most of their funding on PR campaigns, travel, and high end accommodations for themselves. Instead, go to Charitywatch.org and look up a top rated charity to support your favorite cause. In general, support the little guy as much as possible and the big guy as little as possible. Do your part to reverse the transfer of wealth away from the rich and back to the middle and lower classes. Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer. Jobs will be lost either way. Innocent children will starve and die either way. But we need to support the largest group of workers with the most reasonable profit margins. We also need to support LEGITIMATE charities (Check that list at Charitywatch.org). This is our only chance to limit the severity and/or duration of the comming US/global depression. In the meantime, don’t listen to Bernanke, Paulson, Bartiromo, Orman, Dobbs, Kramer, O'Reiley, or any other public figure with regard to the economy. They are all plenty smart but I swear to you that they will lie right through their rotten teeth. IT MAKES THEM RICHER. These people work for big business. The ‘experts’ they cite also work for big business. They are all motivated by their desire to accumulate more wealth. THEY WILL LIE RIGHT THROUGH THEIR ROTTEN TEETH. So don’t fall for their tricks. Instead, look at the big picture. The economic problems we face have been mounting for well over 20 years. All of them caused or aggravated by a constant transfer of wealth from poorer to richer. Soon, it will cause the first ever GLOBAL DEPRESSION. Its not brain surgery. Its simple math. Like I said, you are welcome to run this by any professor of economics or socio-economics. If that's not good enough, then look up what Einstein had to say about greed, extreme wealth, and its horrible consequences. I speak the truth. GREED KILLS. IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL.
Its already underway. A massive campaign to divert our attention. Trump, Buffet, OReiley, Dobbs, Pickens, Norris, and several other well known filthy rich public figures have been running their mouths about the economy. Finally admitting a hint of severity after almost 2 years of denial. They even have the nerve to acknowledge the possibility of a US/global depression. Still, they refuse to acknowledge the single greatest underlying cause. Remember: Our national debt was way up BEFORE sub-prime. Consumer debt was way up BEFORE sub-prime. The cost of living was up BEFORE sub-prime. Wall Street profits were obscene BEFORE sub-prime. The middle class were loosing free and clear assets BEFORE sub-prime. Our infrastructure was in bad shape BEFORE sub-prime. Loans from China were taken out BEFORE sub-prime. The dollar was loosing value BEFORE sub-prime. So don’t let these cowardly filthy rich public figures divert your attention or limit your range of thought. THE CURRENT ECONOMIC CRISIS WAS NOT CAUSED BY A SINGLE POLICY OR PROCEDURE. IT WAS CAUSED PRIMARILY BY A MASSIVE TRANSFER OF WEALTH FROM POOR TO RICH. OTHERWISE, THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SUCH A MARKET FOR SUB-PRIME AND THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A GLOBAL CREDIT CRUNCH. MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES AND IT DOES NOT FLOAT AWAY. IT ONLY TRANSFERS FROM ONE PARTY TO ANOTHER. ALBERT EINSTEIN TRIED TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND. GREED KILLS. IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL.
A word for those who respond with the usual ‘I know more than you. Look how smart, knowledgable, and articulate I am’ crap. Let me say this in advance. I don’t claim to be an expert in this field. But I did go on record with these predictions long before any public figure uttered the word ‘recession’. If you search long enough, you will find my early postings from ‘05′ and ‘06′. Including the first draft of this rant. Since then, I’ve gone on record against people like Greenspan, Bernanke, and Paulson. So far, my predictions have been accurate. Like I said. This is not brain surgery. For the most part, its simple math. When you concentrate the world’s wealth, you also concentrate its capital and shrink the middle class along with the potential market for every major industry. Homes go unsold. Bills go unpaid. Banks fail. More products go unsold. Jobs are lost. More banks fail. and so on. and so on. It happened 80 years ago. It will happen again. This time on a global scale. Throughout the cycle, the rich will tighten their grip. Concentrating the world’s wealth and resources even further and ensuring the collapse of every major economy worldwide. Think it can’t happen? Think again. GREED KILLS. IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL.
Another thing. I don’t want credit for any of this. Otherwise, I would have given my full name a long time ago. As far as I’m concerned, you can put this rant in your own words and take credit for all of it. I don’t care. Just spread the word. Otherwise, the greatest injustice of all time will go down in history unchecked.
By the way. The bailout won’t work. IT WON’T WORK. The plan fails to address the fundamental problem. The middle class don’t need more credit. They need a reasonable share of the economic pie. They also need a lower cost of living and a chance to catch their breath. Most of all, they need to wake up and see the truth. GREED KILLS. IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL.
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