Tuesday, February 13, 2007

A few words on tolerance and respect

By Heraclitus

Yes, yes, more on the Edwards bloggers, and I know how it must bore some of you. But, what can I say? You know how to use that scrolling thing on your mouse (which I still think is pretty cool). Meanwhile, I feel compelled to write this, because it's either this or do work, and we all know how I feel about the latter. Well, actually, you might not, but here's the "411," as the kids are saying (I suddenly feel so hip -- and yes, I know that's slang from like five years ago, and yes, that is part of the joke): I'm a lazy bastard. So, here goes.

Amanda Marcotte has apparently resigned from the Edwards campaign. Among other interesting things in that post, we learn that Frances Kissling, a well-known "liberal Catholic," wrote a letter to The New York Times criticizing Donohue. The Times, not suprisingly, was too cowardly to print it.

But I wanted to focus more on one of the posts that caused so much faux outrage from braying jackasses like Donohue. Oh, and by the way, it turns out Donohue probably violated federal tax law by using his non-profit to intervene directly in a political campaign (more here -- see especially this comment by the Dangeral One, and here). Anyways, whoop, here it is, as the kids as saying (yes, more irony -- oh, the full post is here, if you're interested in that context thing, you filthy commie bastard):


Q: What if Mary had taken Plan B after the Lord filled her with his hot, white, sticky Holy Spirit?

A: You’d have to justify your misogyny with another ancient mythology.

This is "obscene," if you like, and disrespectful. But in his apology post, Edwards called it "intolerant." That it simply is not. Toleration does not imply or require respect. In fact, that's the whole point of toleration. I don't respect the beliefs of Scientologists, New Age crystal enthusiasts, six-day Creationists, or libertarians (although at least one of these groups does seem more like a criminal organization than even the most wacked-out of cults). But I tolerate them, in the sense that I don't want to outlaw them. Others may not respect my sardonic and bored nihilism. But as long as they're willing to tolerate it, the question of respect is irrelevant. As long as they don't use the coercive power of the state to forcibly ship me off to Bible camp or the Cato Institute, I won't use it to subject them to repeated viewings of Don't Look Back until they go around intoning nasally, "I'm glad I'm not me," and "Oh, you're one of those."

This difference, between tolerance and respect, is pretty fundamental to the functioning of a liberal democracy, and it doesn't reflect well on Edwards that he doesn't seem to understand it (or is willing to ignore it for the purposes of pandering more effectively). In any case, having read several of Amanda's posts on religion, I think her point in using such "edgy" language is to make a larger or deeper point about the wellsprings of religious belief. I think her argument would be that religious belief, which tends to be rather heavy on the afterlife business, arises chiefly from our fear and trembling in the face of death, of which our mortal, organic, leaky bodies, these muddy vestures of decay, are a constant reminder. That's why physical mortification and asceticism is such an important part of so much religious practice. (This is either Amanda or Nietzsche, I don't really remember. In any case, I think she's onto something here, though I don't think this is an exhuastive explanation.) Teh sex is the messiest and most inexorable reminder, at least psychologically, of the reality of these damned bodies of ours, which insist on dying and rotting on us. Thus the "hot, white sticky Holy Spirit" line wasn't just intended to provoke offence and the various viewings-with-horror to which we've been treated over the past week or so. Amanda's purpose was rather to put her finger on precisely the impulse that leads to belief in a superhuman God, a God who transcends all physical reality and thus can save us from the ultimate and inevitable consequences of being enmeshed in that reality.

But then why couldn't she just make her point all wordy and boring, like you just did? Why did she have to make it almost obscene (although nothing in that quote is actually obscene in the sense of using cuss words or sexually graphic language; it's all implication or double entendre)? Presumably because it makes her point all the more effectively; the reaction of queasy outrage shows the above argument -- which, admittedly, I've more or less foisted on her -- to be much more compelling than simply stating it can.

But, apparently such criticisms/mockery of religion is verboten. One does wonder, however, if the offending passage is really less respectful, or even "tolerant," than saying that unbelievers will go to hell. Or, indeed, than teaching that homosexuals are inherently "disordered." I'm not suggesting that the government step in and start regulating religious speech -- far from it. I'm just pointing out the double standard, that two lines describing the Immaculate Conception as an organic process are somehow less respectful and more horrifying than pronouncing eternal damnation upon the souls of someone whose belief system you don't like, or whose sex life you disapprove of.

But, I suppose that's understandable. Religious people take their beliefs seriously, and those Catholics who have spent the past week squawking about a few irreverent words must be beside themselves with righteous indignation when they see politicians supporting the death penalty, a doctrine of "pre-emptive" war, uncritically embracing capitalism, and so forth. No doubt their rage knows no bounds, and they cannot sleep until anyone professing these views has been forced out of electoral politics. On the other hand, perhaps their indignation is rather more selective, due to their shockingly selective obedience to the teachings of the Magisterium. But in that case, these good people will have forgive to rest of us for not humoring their pretence to be nobly aggrieved at the insult to their piety, and instead recognizing the reality that they are just partisan hacks using their religion as a political weapon. Likewise, those harping on the political necessity of pandering to religious bigots will kindly acknowledge the crassly mercenary logic at work here, and spare us any further moralistic posturing.

But, just so you don't think I've lost my little mind, gentle reader (your concern, upon which I know I can presume, is truly touching), I'm not holding my breath while waiting for any of that to happen.

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28 Comments:

  • Edwards is shedding the softie,breck girl image though...here's video proof:
    http://minor-ripper.blogspot.com/2007/02/john-edwards-gets-tough-with-matt-lauer_08.html

    By Blogger Minor Ripper, at 2:01 AM  

  • I'm sorry to hear the nutcakes drove her out. They'll perceive it as a win and it will only make them more insufferable.

    On the other hand, I wonder if she wasn't just chafing under the editorial restrictions. I wouldn't blog if I had to answer to an editor that dictated my content.

    By Blogger Libby Spencer, at 11:54 AM  

  • You just don't get it. Like it or not, the majority of the country is religious (I am an atheist.) Edwards wants to be president. He won't get there by having someone in public relations who seems to get off by publicly disparaging the beliefs of the people who vote.

    It really is that simple. That is the reality of the situation. Lofty ideals did not get him where he is today, pandering for votes did. (Well, that and ripping off large companies with bogus science in court.)

    See, it didn't take paragraphs of run-on sentences and elitist nonsense to explain.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:19 PM  

  • Great point, anonymous. Irrational mob rule, that's the ticket. Heaven forbid, apparently literally, that anyone try to introduce any principles into politics.

    Also, you don't know what a run-on sentence is.

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 6:27 PM  

  • Heraclitus, you dont even get what was most offensive about Marcotte's coments. It isn't the sexual imagery (although that confirms Marcotte's complete lack of class OR humor), but it the claim that any Catholic (or Christian more generally) is a misogynist.

    There is no other word for it than a pedjudice born of stereotyipcal thinking, ignorance, and hate.

    The truth is, if you belong to a group that is on the liberal "shit list" opinion folks (like yourself) dont care what kind of hateful language gets thrown out there. Edwards HAS to care because he is not a fuzzy opinion seeker...he is looking for votes.

    I just wish more folks on the left were looking for a little common decency.

    BTW I didn't know anti-Catholic bigotry was a "principle."

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 6:35 PM  

  • Iconic midwesterner, try reading the post from which the offending snippet was taken, to see why she made that argument. Since you probably won't: she wasn't referring to all Catholics, just the ones who lie and say birth control pills cause abortions.

    The principle is not "anti-Catholic bigotry," though it's good to see the most irrational and narrow-minded identity politics are alive and well, but that disrespecting someone's religion shouldn't be any more "offensive" than attacking people's sex lives. Why is an obliquely obscene mockery of someone's religious symbolism hunky-dory, while condemning people's lack of religious belief or sexual orientation is not?

    And in your quest for "a little common decency," maybe you can go read the small portion of the hate mail Amanda has received and posted at Pandagon, or McEwan's post where she explains she resigned from the Edwards campaign because of veiled threats to her and her family. No doubt your noble outrage will be kindled by all of that, and you can write Bill Donohue and ask him if he regrets his part in bringing this upon these two young women, and if he's going to denounce the hate mail with one-tenth the energy he used to wage his spiteful little campaign.

    I explained above why I thought Amanda's post was acceptable, and it has nothing to do with anyone being on my "shitlist." If you're too lacking in reading comprehension skills to follow, that's not my problem. Go indulge your martyr complex, your poor little dear.

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 6:41 PM  

  • JH Christ almighty, I'd have to stand behind little Amanda in the martyr line...WAY behind as she has been there long before she joined team Edwards.

    "On the subject of surveillance that Austin mentions, it’s noteworthy that the religious right has, through endless panty-sniffing, broken down people’s ability to comprehend the difference between secrecy and privacy. Because people think that masturbation and fornication and contraception and same-sex desire are some terrible sins, they are up in your business about it, trying to stop you."

    (What PLANET is she on?)

    I'll be the first to say its terrible that she has the tiny minded coming out of the woodwork at her. Matching bile for bile isn't the point.

    But none of this happens in a vacuum. When Pope Benedict was elected you had foks at The Daily Kos trying (unsuccesfully I might add) to stop folks there from calling him a Nazi. One reader left the very positive comment that selecting Benedict was:

    "And for African peoples, this is nothing less than genocide."

    Nice.

    And of course there is no one there but those non-bigots.

    But let us stick with Pandagon shall we?

    You are saying her post wasn't about Catholic as such. As Penn & Teller would say (ok Penn) "Bullshit". The very next sentence after the Holy Spirit as Semen "joke" is:

    "Remember, the purpose of going over this FAQ sheet point by point is that this is not fringe opinion, this is mainstream Catholic teaching."

    (So my reading comprehension seems to be ok, how's yours?)

    So claiming that she is only talking about a small subset of Catholics is false. She makes it painfully clear she is talking about the faith generally.

    Because she has her, shall we say, "view":

    "This cruel disregard for women and notion that women are obligated to “prove” their love to men by demonstrating his virility to the world with repeat pregnancies is sold as respect for women. The only way to convince people that treating a woman like an incubator is respect is to spread even more misogyny by arguing that women who fuck for pleasure are whores. And so the anti-choice view of “love” comes down to the idea that women are debased and that men are so elevated that women should treat getting pregnant again as a gift because they’ve been blessed by the Holy Sperm. In other words, sex is about male dominance."

    (Hey there is that pesky God as semen again.)

    Now of course not all of Amanda's writings on Catholicism are downright hateful. Some are mereful confused and moronic. Take this gem (please):

    " the Vatican might be a little hesistant to come right out and say that there’s no limbo (definition here, for those who don’t know much about Catholicism) is because the concept is wielded by everyday Catholics to explain where the souls of unborn babies go, which is just an extra way to guilt trip women who have abortions."

    Not hateful....but dumb as a box of rocks.

    And that was maybe 5 minutes worth of looking. God only knows what one would find with a fine toothed comb.

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 1:49 AM  

  • The Church's teaching on contraception is "mainstream" in the sense that it's official, you're kidding yourself if you think most Catholics follow it, or even view it with anything other than derision.

    But, if you're so interested in dialogue, why does the Catholic Church deserve more respect than the gays whom they teach are fundamentally "disordered"? Why should religion generally be exempt from criticism and mockery, while it preaches that whole groups of people are going to hell?

    And are you more angry about a few blog posts by Amanda, or by the fact that hundreds of people are murdered every year by the state here in the US, in violation of Catholic teaching, and that the Iraq War was launched as a "pre-emptive" war with no consideration for the objectios of the Vatican, and indeed with open contempt for the Catholic tradition of Just War theory. Aren't these far more serious problems, for a serious Catholic, than a woman saying "God" and "sperm" in the same sentence?

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 2:03 AM  

  • Oh, and what planet is she on? Probably the one where the religious right is trying to outlaw contraception, and trying even harder to outlaw abortion.

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 2:05 AM  

  • Oh, and one last thing, and just so we're clear, you started by accusing me of bigotry and intellectual dishonesty. I replied by noting that your mixture of sniveling victim-rhetoric and blusthering sanctimony, while somewhat unusual, was tiresome and vacuous. I also pointed out my reasons for arguing as I did, which you apparently either missed or ignored in your haste to masquerade as the victim. Nothing I said can reasonably be construed as bigotry, and I've made my reasons perfectly clear for why I don't think Amanda's two lines were somehow beyond the pale. Your attack on me was dishonest and inaccurate, but I suppose it's all the same, since some unnamed commenter on Kos said something stupid about the Pope two years ago.

    It is not bigotry to mock someone's religious beliefs, still less some aspect or other of their theology. Bigotry is disliking people because of their identity. If Amanda has argued that Catholics should be barred from government employment, etc., that would be bigotry. Mocking the religious teachings of an organized church is simply not bigotry, no matter how much you want it to be.

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 2:16 AM  

  • You state:

    "The Church's teaching on contraception is "mainstream" in the sense that it's official, you're kidding yourself if you think most Catholics follow it, or even view it with anything other than derision."

    And presumably Marcotte doesn't have problems with the cafeteria Catholics, right? (Why would she spend time bitching about folks that agree with her?) And here is a shocker, ITS A RELIGION NOT A POLITICAL PROGRAM! Its tenets only apply to those who choose to accept them...at least in the western world.

    But notice your train of thought..somehow criticising Marcotte is beyond the pall, but it is a DUTY to deride folks that take their Catholic faith seriously.

    That is a really weird standard.

    You state: "But, if you're so interested in dialogue, why does the Catholic Church deserve more respect than the gays whom they teach are fundamentally "disordered"? Why should religion generally be exempt from criticism and mockery, while it preaches that whole groups of people are going to hell?"

    Using this standard I'll be waiting anxiously for your vicious take down of Islam.

    And where have I claimed that people shouldn't be allowed to criticize the Church or Christians generally speaking? I'm just against the "mainstreaming" of this anti-Catholic sentiment.

    You state: "And are you more angry about a few blog posts by Amanda, or by the fact that hundreds of people are murdered every year by the state here in the US, in violation of Catholic teaching, and that the Iraq War was launched as a "pre-emptive" war with no consideration for the objectios of the Vatican, and indeed with open contempt for the Catholic tradition of Just War theory."

    You can go read my blog. I haven't said word one about Marcotte and Company. Obviously, it isn't all THAT consuming of an issue, for me at least. I just get pissed off when I see people make excuses for hatred and incivility. Your take seems to be that you can say anything you like about folks who take their faith seriously because they shouldn't hold those beliefs in the first place. Presumably you dislike those beliefs because they go against your political ideology. Fine. More power to ya. But to claim that it is ok to define anyone who is religious and who adheres to the tenets of that religion as a "misogynist" is garbage.

    You state: "Oh, and what planet is she on? Probably the one where the religious right is trying to outlaw contraception, and trying even harder to outlaw abortion."

    Marcotte claims folks are trying to "stop" people from masturbating and fornicating. Where? How? When? How we could live in a more PRO-masturbatory and pro-fornication society is beyond me. Yet somehow Marcotte feels persecuted by folks who dont particularly like the "Girls Gone Wild" ads or the "Natural Male Enhancement" or sex pep pills ads. And last time I checked, Griswold v. CT still rules the land on contraceptives. But maybe you can point me to a Con Law Prof that seriously believes Griwald is in danger. (I doubt it.)

    You state: "Oh, and one last thing, and just so we're clear, you started by accusing me of bigotry and intellectual dishonesty."

    Where? I claim that I didn't think you even noticed the "misogyny" charge as offensive. I make the assertion that Marcotte's statements are bigotted and hateful. I claim that some folks more interested in political opinion than anything else, are tone def about such things and "dont care what kind of hateful language gets thrown out there." And I ended with tweaking you about calling Marcotte's position "pricipled." So the worst I could be accused of is calling you careless and insensitive. (Which was directed at you personally only in so far as you belong to the lefty "opinion" community at large.) Which you pretty much prove by falsely claiming that I called you a bigot and intellectually dishonest.

    In fact, you almost immediately stated that you didn't think I could read...and now I learn that I'm a little "sniveling" "sanctimonius" "vacuous" "victim" wannabe. I'll give you credit though...you didn't come right out and call me an asshole. (Yeah, I'm damning with faint praise.)

    So I "started" nothing. (Is that my father I hear? Saying he is gonna turn this blog right around and go home if we dont start to behave?)

    But you can call me all the names you like if it gets you through the day. You'll firgive me if I dont consider it rational discourse.

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 10:56 AM  

  • You stated: "It is not bigotry to mock someone's religious beliefs, still less some aspect or other of their theology. Bigotry is disliking people because of their identity."

    What if people's identity is wrapped up in their religion? Can you really throw it out the window because it doesn't fall within the confines of the liberal "trinity" of "race, gender and ethnicity"? Does this mean you can say any hateful thing you want to Jews or Muslims as long as you couch it in "theological" terms, and it is NEVER bigotry? So it would be ok to savage Mit Romney as a Mormom, because that is a religious classification? Are you really wedded to this conception?

    It amazes me how "indentity politics" encompasses seemingly everything EXCEPT religion. How nimble a notion it is.

    You further state: " If Amanda has argued that Catholics should be barred from government employment, etc., that would be bigotry."

    Isn't that discrimination? I've NEVER heard the term bigotry used as a synonym for discrimination before.

    And according to MW it isn't:

    bigot - a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

    So discrimination is not necessary to be defined as a bigot.

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 11:33 AM  

  • Iconic Jackass, I didn't "viciously take down" anything. The points I made about the sources of religious belief apply to all religions. You're clearly incapable of intellectually honest disagreement, so I'm through wasting my time with you. I'd like an apology for your false accusations, but you're clearly too much of a liar/coward to offer it. Take your sniveling little sense of entitlement elsewhere, and go someone else names you don't know the meaning of.

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 12:41 PM  

  • Oh, so I AM at the Daily Kos (or Little Green Fottballs).

    I'm sorry that I was so very much mistaken about where I was.

    I knew I should have taken that left at Albuquerque.

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 1:03 PM  

  • Snivel on, crybaby. Now go protest the death penalty.

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 1:12 PM  

  • You know...as this is the first and only time I'll be commenting here...I have to say there is a bit of false advertising going on here. There is nothing vaguely Socratic about any of this.

    Even when Socrates is confronted by dangerously unstable youths (say a Callicles or a Thrasymachus) his approach is calm, measured, perhaps biting in ways they usually didn't understand, but never shrill or dismissive.

    Additionally, there is nothing vaguely Straussian about any of this. Were it so there would be some notion of a subtext to this discussion. There is none of that here (unless you call being thin skinned "subtext.")

    Actually, if you wanted to pick a Greek moniker that summed up the whole feel of the place, Heraclitus is a poor choice.

    Theages would have been the way to go.

    (In case you were not sure, yeah, that's a put down.)

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 2:26 PM  

  • And BTW you got my personal take on the death penalty wrong.

    Boy those prejudices can be vexing.

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 2:31 PM  

  • Although I think you're of some interest as a symptom, which is to say as an unusually pure expression of banality, I have intention of wasting time with your little blog. You'll just have to accept that you find me much more fascinating than I find you.

    By Blogger Heraclitus, at 3:03 PM  

  • Actually you are absolutely right.

    It's an intellectual train wreck over here. It's mesmerizing.

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 3:39 PM  

  • Allow me to wade into this little back-and-forth. Obviously, it isn't going anywhere. You've both made your points.

    Needless to say, I side with Heraclitus on this. And before anyone accuses me of doing so either because he and I are of one mind or because I must defend all of my co-bloggers no matter what, let me stress that Heraclitus do not always agree and that I have disagreed with him publicly.

    Iconic Midwesterner -- and thank you for visting our blog and commenting, even if it hasn't been the most pleasurable experience for you) -- you are more than welcome to defend Catholicism (or any other Christian denomination, or Christianity, or religion generally), of course, but it troubles me that you immediately label Amanda (and Heraclitus) a bigot in your very first comment above. Right away, the debate is over. There can be no discussion once one side has labelled the other so uniformly and so severely.

    In my view, neither Amanda nor Heraclitus is a bigot. But, regardless, you focus on Heraclitus's defence of Amanda rather than on what Heraclitus says in his post. I think he explains himself and his intentions extremely well. His post is a thoughtful meditation on the difference between respect and toleration. Unfortunately, your venemous responses to him here only serves to prove his point.

    And by the way, I'm not sure you want to get into a discussion with us about Socrates and Strauss. Regardless, if you take the time to peruse this blog, you'll find that we are open to different ideas, that we link to and are friendly to conservatives and others we might not necessarily agree with on certain issues, and that we are anything but rigidly ideological.

    By Blogger Michael J.W. Stickings, at 4:49 PM  

  • M. Stickings said: "... you are more than welcome to defend Catholicism (or any other Christian denomination, or Christianity, or religion generally), of course, but it troubles me that you immediately label Amanda (and Heraclitus) a bigot in your very first comment above. Right away, the debate is over. There can be no discussion once one side has labelled the other so uniformly and so severely."
    Excuse me while I ice down my chin which was injured when my jaw dropped abruptly at the irony.

    In case you missed it: the debate wasn't over when Marcotte called the Catholic Church teachings misogynistic?

    By Anonymous C Stanley, at 10:17 AM  

  • Michael,

    If Heraclitus' intent was procedural in nature there would have been no argument, or what argument there was would have been small. In fact I read his original post as if he was making a procedural argument. What do i mean by that? Well, take the case of the ACLU defending the KKK's right to free speech. When it does helps the KKK in those cases it doesn't mean that the ACLU is endorsing the substance of the KKK views. Everyone gets that. The ACLU doesn't think the KKK platform is "just another viewpoint" or "someones take on the world" that deserves as much respect as any other opinion.

    I made the exact same assumption about Heraclitus defending Marcotte. And I AGREED. She should be able to say what she wants without assholes threatening her. (The fact that nasty comments, as opposed to physical threats to her person, get directed towards her has to be taken with a grain of salt, as, if you read the comment section over there, she can be as nasty and mean spirited as anyone. If she can give that kind of junk out, she should be willing to take it too.)

    However, that doesn't mean what she says isn't bigotted and unworthy of respect. And I find her writing on Catholicism and Christianity every bit as bigotted as any KKK screed. Alright, fine, you guys disagree, and you want to make an argument (so I assumed) that her writing is within the bounds of legitimate opinion. My point was you are never going to convince a large number of people that calling the Church a vehicle for misogyny is anything other than hateful.

    So, back in my original comment (please go re-read it) I very clearly call Marcotte's views "a pedjudice born of stereotyipcal thinking, ignorance, and hate." Now, I do say that I think Heraclitus misses the point by focusing so much on the sexual imagery in that one statement. I AGREE WITH HIS TAKE ON THAT. It's distasteful, "obscene" (if you like, its not a word I use), and "in the gutter" vulgar, but I'd defend her right to say it.

    I then stated, perhaps infelicitously, "The truth is, if you belong to a group that is on the liberal "shit list" opinion folks (like yourself) dont care what kind of hateful language gets thrown out there." The point here is that many on the left do not care for many of the Catholic Church's teachings, particularly on sexual mores, as they conflict with their ideological vision. For that reason they are very comfortable hearing "anti-Catholic doctrine" talk on those subjects. SO comfortable in fact that I feel they dont notice when it crosses the line from disagrement on issues to hate.

    I then made the commonplace view that Edwards, as a presidential candidate, has to make sure he appeals to as large a number of people as he can. In that effort he will naturally try not to piss off large groups of people that might possibly supprt him. Why am I going on like this??? He's gonna try to steer clear of controversey, just like every other serious presidential candidate. Period.

    So while I very clearly labelled Marcotte a bigot (which is what the entire contrversey is about, right? If you define taking up the other side of the question as "out-of-bounds" how can we have a discussion?) I very clearly did NOT label Haraclitus as anything other than being on the "left."

    So, of course, the very helpful response came from Heraclitus that Marcotte WASN'T a bigot because of two very important reasons: A) She wasn't talking all Catholic and B) I was an illiterate with a martyr complex.

    I responded by pointing out that Marcotte very clearly stated she was talking about the central tenets of Catholic Teaching and not some fringe group of whack jobs. I went on to point out other examples of Marcotte's writings that were either A) hateful or biggoted on religion or B) simply muddled headed on Catholicism. I also pointed to an example of behavior on the DK that backed up my claim that anti-Catholic bile can rise up on the left. (And to the DK's credit they tried to say "Whoa folks!! That's over the line" but the comment section was having none of it. Oh and, just for the record, there were SCORES of folks calling the pope a Nazi not just "an unnamed" commentor.)

    It was only at this point that Heraclitus started to defend the SUBSTANCE of Marcotte's views. It was also at this point that I had to consider that maybe Haraclitus was not playing the ACLU to Marcotte's KKK. And yes, I changed tactics, just like an attorney asking the judge to treat someone as a hostile witness.

    From that point on almost none of my points were addressed by Heraclitus, who mostly just repeated the Marcotte line. There was this exchange though...

    You (Heraclitus) state: "But, if you're so interested in dialogue, why does the Catholic Church deserve more respect than the gays whom they teach are fundamentally "disordered"? Why should religion generally be exempt from criticism and mockery, while it preaches that whole groups of people are going to hell?"

    I said: "Using this standard I'll be waiting anxiously for your vicious take down of Islam."

    to which I got the response:

    "Iconic Jackass, I didn't "viciously take down" anything."

    To me...my point was very clear. Muslims do not think Heraclitus or I are going to get into paradise when we punch our final time card. Good things are not going to happen to us, so says their religion. Now, if is justifiable for people to say whatever they like about the Catholic Church because its teachings send some folks to hell, then it would be ok to do the same to Islam. Heraclitus or I could say WHATEVER we liked about Islam, because we have no reason to respect it as it is not letting us into paradise. Nothing in the realm of language would be "over the line"? Heraclitus made the claim that as long as you didn't discriminate against someone nothing else could be contrued as bigotry. By that standard the KKK are only bigots when they do something specific (i.e. engage in an overt act of discrimination) like deny a black person a job. For me, they are bigots ALL the time, because of what they SAY, the MANNER in which they say it, and the obvous INTENT they have to belittle and demean others.

    To tell you the truth, if I thought for a second that Heraclitus was really defending the SUBSTANCE of Marcotte's "thought" I never would have posted a comment in the first place. It really surprised me that that turned out to be the case. I had no idea he would personally identify his views so strongly with Marcotte's. So strongly in fact that if you call her a bigot you are calling him a bigot too. But, how could I have known that when I started? Ah well..live and learn.

    On the other hand I have enjoyed the irony of all the name calling directed at me by the author of "A few words on tolerance and respect." Great stuff!

    By Blogger The Iconic Midwesterner, at 2:15 PM  

  • I take your point, IM. This does come down to one's views of Marcotte's comments. Either you think she's a bigot or you don't. Or, at least, either you think what she's written is bigoted or you don't. I think she isn't a bigot, but I also have sympathy with her position. What I would say is that she's extremely blunt in her blogging. That isn't always conducive to discourse, but it gets her points across rather provocatively.

    By Blogger Michael J.W. Stickings, at 1:53 PM  

  • By Blogger ali sahin, at 7:15 PM  

  • By Blogger Mehmet, at 1:07 PM  

  • Oyun oyunlar oyun oyna gibi kelimeler toner kartuş konuları yer almakta bedava oyunlar
    2 Oyunculu Oyunlar - Yetenek Oyunları - Dövüş Oyunları - Aksiyon Macera Oyunları - Nişancılık Oyunları - Spor Oyunları - Yarış Oyunları - Zeka Hafıza Oyunları - oyun çocukta doğuştan gelen bir tabiat ve Allah'ın onda yarattığı bir içgüdüdür. Bunun temelinde çocuğun fiziksel gelişiminin mükemmel bir tarzda gelişimdirMotor Oyunları - Mario Oyunları - Savaş Oyunları - Strateji Taktik Oyunları - Yemek Pişirme Oyunları - Dekor Oyunları - Boyama Kitabı Oyunları - 3 Boyutlu Oyunlar - Hugo Oyunları - Sonic Oyunları - Webcam Oyunları - Peri Güzellik Oyunları - Battleon Oyunları - Süper Oyunlar - İlizyon Oyunları - Komik Oyunlar - Teletabi Oyunları - Giysi Giydirme oyunları - Makyaj yapma oyunları -çocuğun en özenli işidir. Yetişkin için iş ve kazanç ne ise onun için de oyun odur... Dış dünyanın kavranılması öğrenilmesi ve hayata hazırlanmanın en ... Kız oyunları - Çocuk Oyunları - işletme oyunları - varmısın yokmusun - Bebek Oyunları - Oyun - Animasyon - Oyun Oyna - Oyunlar - Oyun Cambazı - Bedava Oyunlar - motosiklet dergisi - animasyon - renkli toner tozları - fotokopi toneri - kartuş - toner - boş toner - boş kartuş - toner dram - toner chip - toner tozu - toner dolumu - kartuş dolumu - kartuş dolum malzemeleri - kartuş dolum makinesi - renkli toner dolumu - Bedava Oyun - Kral oyun
    haber

    By Blogger cicicocuk, at 5:20 PM  

  • By Blogger mirckeyfi, at 11:45 AM  

  • By Blogger mirckeyfi, at 11:33 AM  

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